Gut Rumbles
 

May 01, 2004

bullshit!

The six U.S. soldiers facing courts-martial in connection with mistreatment of detainees at an Iraqi prison did not receive in-depth training on the Geneva Conventions, which govern the handling of captives, a military spokeswoman said Friday.

Got-dam! That's sounds a lot like the same old excuse I heard from so many union fuck-ups at work: "Nobody TRAINED me on that!"

Lemme get this straight: Here is a tank. Here is a pump. Here is a valve. You opened the valve, started the pump and ran the tank over. But it's NOT YOUR FAULT because nobody ever trained you to turn off the pump when the tank was full? My ass.

That's the same excuse the six pricks from Iraq are using now. "Sure, I behaved as a sadistic savage. But nobody ever told me that behaving as a sadistic savage was wrong. I didn't receive the proper TRAINING."

My ass, again. Growing up in the United States of America is all the training you need to know better than to behave as a sadistic savage. "Nobody told me NOT to torture anyone! What was I supposed to think?"

You weren't supposed to think about torture, asshole, and you know it in your heart. You don't know the difference between right and wrong because THE FUCKING MILITARY didn't "train" you? What about your goddam parents? What about public schools? What about 20-odd years of living in a civilized country? You didn't learn ANYTHING that the military didn't spoon-feed you?

Fuck 'em. Fry the lying, sadistic shits.

Comments

man, just found your blog! you pretty much hit the nail on the head!!! the excuse of lack of training doesn't fly in my book either. some things you just have to have enough SENSE to know!

Posted by: Michele on May 1, 2004 08:34 AM

so it's ok to be shot at by iraqi children, have them throwing grenades under your Humvees, have roadside bombs, shoot rocket propelled grenades at you, and when you catch a few of the fuckers, you WOULDN'T fuck them up? Come on now.

What do you think happens in American prisons on the daily? Why aren't you in an uproar over how prisoners are allowed to be beaten and raped while the guards allow it?

Cry me a river old man

Posted by: MrNoGood on May 1, 2004 09:23 AM

I have seen a lot of wild accusations floating in the not-known-for-accuracy national media. I have one question, and one question alone that would determine fitness for prosecution :

Did any of the alleged "abuse" result in any permanent physical harm?

In other words, are limbs missing? Any vital organs? Testicles? If not, I have to agree - cry me a river. The only winning scenario in fighting terrorism is to put a fear GREATER than God in their minds. Terrorist must willing make a choice to take their own lives rather than contemplate harming an American. I want to see them so filled with terror they will gnaw their own arms off rather than reach for a bomb or gun.

I have heard from Vietnam vets that carpet bombing was so effective they could cause a VC prisoner to crap on command just by whistling like a dropping bomb. THAT is the level of terror we should put these wastes of humanity under.

And no, I didn't say every Iraqi should feel that way. Just every one that picks up a gun or a bomb for reasons other than self-defense. That moves them instantly and PERMANENTLY to the terrorist column. Hey, after all - doesn't your "gubmint" take away YOUR right to tote a gun after you are even alleged to smack around your wife/girlfriend/significant other/flavor of the week?

Why should it be any different for the enemy, save for the addition of massive amounts of fear?

Posted by: Buster on May 1, 2004 11:04 AM

MrNoGood,

You've obviously spent a little too much time sniffing paint, so I'll assume that you'll be more rational when your head clears.

In what fucked up world do you live in that allows you to think it's ok to torture other human beings for pleasure? Are you that fucking nuts? This isn't punishment, they are POWs. It isn't interrogation. It's just for shits and giggles.

There's no place for that in my vision of civility.

Posted by: Geoffrey on May 1, 2004 11:05 AM

You tell 'em! Those squirrelbutts aren't behaving any better than Saddam' s little assclowns. Great post!

Posted by: DeoDuce on May 1, 2004 12:16 PM

I captured enemies once. I treated them well without allowing them to escape. I was an 18 year old infantry pcf.
These assholes were under the control of a kunt general who very likely was one of Hillary's affirmative action, anti tailhook promos.
These assholes have armed our enemies.
Hang them!

Posted by: Walter Wallis on May 1, 2004 12:20 PM

I too was sickened at the news. The damage can never be undone. The only court martial they'll ever receive will probably be an episode on Jag. As they say history repeats itself. It took too long for the US to enter WWII.
We were very aware of the inhumanity to the Jewish race by the Nazis. There needs to be some house cleaning in our security dept. It's happening here in the US everyday to children by perverts and we just give them a slap on the hand. I know, I taught school for 25 years and listened to their cries and turned many into the authorities.

Posted by: Lexia on May 1, 2004 12:37 PM

Not enough training? What are they smoking? I received the rear-echelon version of LOAC training (ie the bare minimum) and it still contained enough that doing this is out of bounds.

Lexia: Wake up and look at the news. Not receiving a court-martial? They're charging everybody up through the OIC & Commanding officer.

"It took too long for the US to enter WWII" Where'd this come from? If anything, it sounds like you support the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. As far as the house cleaning of the "security dept" goes, I'm assuming that you mean the prison/military system. You're always going to get bad ones. The difference is how you handle it. Remember, stuff worse than this was routine during Saddam's reign, while we're following the legal system to try and convict our own people for violating the rules. I think that counts as 'house-cleaning'. When we find the problem we fix the problem.

These acts weren't done to children. They were done to adults.

Posted by: Firethorn on May 1, 2004 02:00 PM

Geoffrey,

I wager you are the one who has been sniffing paint.

If you are sure of your position, then kindly enlighten us with a detailed plan on how you would defeat terrorism with civility. It would appear you have not been paying attention to the framing of the conflict, as announced by our enemy. The only acceptable outcome to this conflict is our deaths, or theirs. So be it. When confronted with an enemy that desires my death, or theirs, I say "you first!"

The time for civility is after victory, never before.

Further, how much damage can humilitation possibly do to a people who were used to a dictator that shoved them through wood chippers? I daresay our most heinous torture is infintely more compassionate than the lightest torture of Saddam.

Posted by: Buster on May 1, 2004 02:01 PM

Absolutely no excuse for that kind of behavior, the geneva convention is taught during BCT and AIT. Lack of training - BULLSHIT- , It's a lack of discipline from top to bottom. I have handled POW's, once captured they're no longer combatants and are to be afforded the respect and humane treatment the we want from our enemy when our troops become POW's. Just because the enemy behaves like a savage beast doe not justify a reciprocal behaviour. 20 years at Leavenworth is too kind for them.

Posted by: Jack on May 1, 2004 02:16 PM

Geoffrey said:

"It isn't interrogation. It's just for shits and giggles."

Well, that doesn't necessarily correspond with what one of the troops stated in the Baltimore Sun article:

"'We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them,' said another. 'We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours.'"

But since when have we been given enough facts by the press to make an informed decision?

Lexia said:

"As they say history repeats itself. It took too long for the US to enter WWII. We were very aware of the inhumanity to the Jewish race by the Nazis."

Oh, please tell me you're not seriously comparing this to the Holocaust. If you honestly believe they are similar, I'd invite you to read over this page:

http://www.allahpundit.com/archives/000025.html

Posted by: BT on May 1, 2004 03:03 PM

Buster,

Who said anything about winning the war on terrorism with civility? I'm all for killing the fucks. Kill them all and kill them often.

These soldiers are POWs. Their war is over, whether they like it or not. If we are going to behave just like them, why fight them? Join them instead.

Posted by: Geoffrey on May 1, 2004 04:01 PM

I think It's funny. After going back and reading that post, I have to agree with you. I hate white people and since you're white I get mad. I'm a true nigger down to my roots and wish all white people dead. I wish all Iraqi's, fags, whities, and retards dead. THE NIGGA LIVES ON!!!!! BLACK PANTHAS ALL THE WAY!!!

Posted by: MRNOGOOD on May 1, 2004 06:47 PM

I was in the reserves for twenty years. At least once a year we had to sit through the minimum one-hour Geneva Convention training. It sucked, it was boring, we hated it like the plague.

Not only are those sons of bitches not worthy to wear the uniform, they are lieing sons of bitches not worthy to wear the uniform. We do not abuse prisoners. We do not revile prisoners. We take them out of combat, we interrogate the living shit out of them, then we safeguard them.

In certain limited situations, it is perfectly permissible to kill a prisoner. It is not all right to abuse him.

Posted by: Dennis on May 1, 2004 07:06 PM

I agree with you. They were wrong. They should be punished.
I want to punch you in the face though about the exaple you used about the tank and the pump. I remember one of my first jobs. I opened up the faucet of a tank filled with orange juice, but didn't know how to close it. Gallons and gallons spilled on the ground. The boss ran up to me. I said I didn't know how to close the faucet. He said, Are you dumb? If you open it this way, you close it the orher way. It never happened again, but it's nice of you to mention my youthful dumness in the same breath as torture.

Posted by: Ricky Vandal on May 1, 2004 08:09 PM

"youthful dumness" Ricky Vandal????

I would say borderline retarded is more like it.

Posted by: rightisright on May 1, 2004 09:11 PM

America is a beacon of freedom to the entire world. We Just Don't Do this Shit! An extra dose of punishment for the retard with the camera.

Now they are trying to squirm out from under and claim their superiors encouraged them
to aid the interogations.

You know, of course that some dickeed lawyer puckerfuck thought up that training defense.

Posted by: wes jackson on May 1, 2004 10:33 PM

Got-damn. How can the erstwhile black man "MRNOGOOD" even think he has an argument? And trust me, budro. Don't even get on Geoffrey's shitlist.
The point is, these ass sniffers were WRONG. That is not how a United States soldier behaves. And they have given the enemy much ammunition to abuse our soldiers and Marines if they become POW's. A tiny handful of shitbirds like these can destroy the work of thousands of upstanding righteous young men and women. I think we should flay these cocksuckers (I have a bullwhip), film it, and give the footage to Al-Jezeera, to let the Arab world know how we treat miscreants.
Sorry for blaspheming on your site, Rob.

Posted by: Velociman on May 2, 2004 12:05 AM

This is what happens when Officers are no longer Gentilemen. This would not have happened if the Yankees had not won the War of Northern Aggression.
Damn that General Grant.

Posted by: Mad Ogre on May 2, 2004 01:18 AM

I wish I could say Mad Ogre was wrong, but he ain't.

Posted by: Walter Wallis on May 2, 2004 02:04 AM

My own feelings on this are mixed. On one had, there's the righteous reaction: We're above that. We're better than that. We went in there to stop that kind of shit.

On the other, there's the reality that those people are typically in prison because they attempted to kill US soldiers.

I don't think the issue is as black and white as it may seem on the surface, but I need more time to decide exactly what my reaction to it on the whole is.

Posted by: Mr. Lion on May 2, 2004 04:00 AM

Geoffrey,

Are you so very sure about their POW status? According to the Geneva Convention, they must be people taking - and I quote - NO ACTIVE PART IN THE HOSTILITIES.

Are you so very sure that was not the case?

Are any of you?

Further, to qualify under the GC as a POW, they must have a

* Fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance
* Carry arms openly
* Conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war

Among other tests. It seems to me that anyone who fails these tests CANNOT be a POW. Period. End of Story. Full Stop. That is why we call them terrorists instead of "soldiers".

And on top of THAT - and I am splitting legal hairs pretty fine here, I know - at least ONE of the parties to the conflict must have openly declared war, which our Congress has yet to do. Since terrorists represent no particular country, it is impossible for them to declare war on us. The POW point is moot, because without the declaration of war, the entire GC doesn't apply anyway.

Also, how many of you nervous nellies here think OUR captured soldiers receive treatment in harmony with the GC? Anyone? Buhler?

It is high time you people wake up and see reality for what it is. We are fighting a savage enemy that cares not one whit for civilzation, or any of the pleasantries that go along with it. They want one thing - our deaths. They don't care how they accomplish this goal. They only care about taking as many of us out as possible at one time. The time for civility is past, and in case you missed it, that date was September 11, 2001.

There should be only one goal on our minds - winning. You do not win wars against terrorist by playing nice, you win them by putting fears greater than God into the minds of your enemy. You don't win wars against terror by taking prisoners, you win them by making your enemy choose suicide over capture. You don't win wars on terror by remaining morally superior and aloof, you win them by wallowing in the sewers where you enemy live and showing them you can and will do so with relish and willing abandon.

We must be more ruthless, more brutal, more terrorizing, and more lethal than the enemy ever dreamed of being. In short, Patton was right - the object here is not to die for the USA, but to make the enemy die for what they believe in.

Posted by: Buster on May 2, 2004 09:25 AM

How are we supposed to get these guys to talk? Ask them nicely? Some degree of torture is nessesary. I think this treatment was pretty mild. The one who should be strung up is the dumbass with the camera.

Posted by: Highpower on May 2, 2004 12:35 PM

The Geneva Convention states that a tribunal determines the status of detainees and whether they are "prisoners of war" or not.

Until that time, they are TO BE TREATED as prisoners of war. And once the enemy lays down his weapon to surrender, he is a prisoner of war.

Which means he is NOT to be tortured or humiliated.

The other controlling authority here is the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which states in Subchapter X. Section 893. Article 93. CRUELTY AND MALTREATMENT:

Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Posted by: Rob @ L&R on May 2, 2004 01:39 PM

The Geneva Convention is dated, and adhering to it only makes sense when both sides follow it. It was designed for war between civilized people. Not the animals that we face now.

Posted by: HIGHPOWER on May 2, 2004 01:56 PM

Rob,

Fortunately for us, the Geneva Convention doesn't say anything of the sort. Article 5 states

"Should any doubt arise.."

It doesn't say a tribunal "will" or "shall" make a determination. We have not expressed any doubts because the terrorists do NOT meet the standards set forth in the GC. Further, as I have mentioned, if there is not a declared state of war from ONE of the parties to the conflict, the ENTIRE GC gets tossed from the get-go.

We haven't declared war. They don't come from any particular country that has declared war. Game over - GC doesn't apply.

I know you WANT it to, but what you want is not what it SAYS.

Also, are you so naive as to think any of our captured soldiers will be treated in harmony with the GC? And since when does the GC condone kidnapping? I don't see you all in a lather about the terrorists kidnapping civilians. What of that?

As for the UCMJ, I wasn't aware that courts-martial had already delivered guilty verdicts. The section you quote only establishes "jurisdiction" as it were. It has no relevance to proving guilt or innocence of anyone, or having the effect of limiting any soldiers actions.

Really, people. You should get your facts straight before you head off to the lynching...

Posted by: Buster on May 2, 2004 02:26 PM

Ahh, but war HAS been declared on us. It may not have been a formal declaration, but jihad, holy war, had been declared.

Should any doubt arise...
There is doubt about the detainees at Guantanamo, therefore they are to be treated as prisoners of war.

There may be doubt about those captured in Iraq, therefore they are to be treated as prisoners of war.

Whatever they are, they are to be treated as prisoners of war.

I brought up the UCMJ on the chance that someone would consider the Geneva Convention irrelevant.

trap set... bait taken.

The Article I quoted notes that cruelty and maltreatment by those subject to the rules of the Code (all military personnel) inflicted on those subject to the orders of those subject to the code (prisoners) is a punishable offense and, if found guilty, are subject to the punishments that the courts martial may direct.

And just because I don't MENTION the kidnapping of civilians, don't you dare assume that I condone it.

Posted by: Rob @ L&R on May 2, 2004 03:52 PM

#1. We MUST win this war on terror to save ourselves and the world from Sharian law.(sp?)
#2. We must win in a way that allows our men to come home without a mutilating guilt hung round their necks. (Vietnam) Come home proud of their service and proud of this country. We are Americans, and we all know right from wrong, we don't need a rule book with codes, we just know.
#3. That all said, anything goes that saves the lives of our guys, and brings this all to an end even one day sooner.

Posted by: wes jackson on May 2, 2004 09:02 PM

Rob,

War has not been declared on us. No matter how you want it to be otherwise, the terrorists DO NOT represent a particular country. The GC does not mention "holy wars" at all, therefore they do not apply.

It is also painfully apparent you do not understand the UCMJ. The article you quoted establishes jurisdiction, and nothing more. It is a listing of what crimes a member of the armed services MAY be tried for, not a guarantee of trial.

Now, as to doubt, that doubt must be filed for by the government of the prisoners in queston. Since there are no specific governments that can do so - remember, you tried to claim "holy war" - there can exist no doubt as we are certainly not going to file for it.

All the evidence points to the fact you are dead wrong on everything you have said. The only trap that exists here is falling into the wellspring of your own ignorance of the facts. I know you want it to be so, but that doesn't make it so. You have to read what is there, not what you want to happen.

And yes, I will assume you do condone kidnapping because of the dearth of condemnation for it. You want to try and convict our soldiers based strictly on feeling, but you are silent about terrorists seizing and executing hostages. One has to wonder how you can overlook some injustices but not others. Curious.

Posted by: Buster on May 3, 2004 07:23 AM

I refuse to read all this bull shit excuses. I am an Army Vet, and I am deeply ashamed of these so called soldiers. They lied, plain and simple, they were trained, basic training covers the treatement of prisoners of war. No matter how little I think of the Iraq prisoners, these scum bags have just made it a thousand times worse for the real soldiers trying to do a job. I don't want to hear the excuse that they were ordered to do it, another basic training drill is that a soldier has a duty not to obey illigal orders. Everyone in that chain of command needs to be court martialed. There is no excuse for giving the enemy a reason to escualate the hatred. Just another reason to expand the active army and reduce the Guards and the Reserve;s roals.

Posted by: James Old Guy on May 3, 2004 07:28 AM

I don't see how I could be ignorant of the facts, when I have faced non-judicial punishment myself, under Article 86 of the UCMJ, which, like Article 93, states an offense punishable under the Code and that those subject to the Code may be punished for that offense. Which, as I've said, is fully applicable in the case of the prison guards.

Here you go. Read it yourself, because YOU don't seem to be familiar with it.
I'm not presuming you to be stupid, just ignorant.

What part of "Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct" do you NOT understand?

and, remember what they say about when you ASS-U-ME.
I suppose that since I have not mentioned child molestation, throwing away medals/ribbons, global warming, school prayer, taking "under God" out of the Pledge or putting raisins and walnuts in cookies that YOU ASSUME I must be in favor of all of them.

ASSUME away.

Posted by: Rob @ L&R on May 3, 2004 08:45 AM
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