April 20, 2004

I hope it don't happen here. When my daughter was young people would compliment me all the time on her behavior. She was a good girl and when she wasn't, she got spankins.

I received a few good butt-whuppins when I was a kid and looking back, I know that I deserved each and every spanking I got. The current trend -- to "reason with the child" -- borders on the ridiculous.

I get sick to my stomach when I see a young mother trying to "reason with" an unruly 5-year-old in the grocery store. I've seen kids running up and down the isles, screaming, crying, pitching temper tantrums, taking items off the shelves and generally acting like brats. And all the while, the child's mother keeps up a constant chatter in a futile attempt to "reason with" said unruly child -- "You musn't run in the store -- you might fall down. Don't play with those cans -- the nice man spent a lot of time making the shelves look nice so we don't want to mess it up. No, you can't have that bag of candy -- don't cry, baby -- Mommie promises to give you ice cream when we get home. Please be nice, baby. Please don't cry. Please get up off the floor."

For God's sake, tell the kid to behave or you'll give him/her a good spanking -- and then follow through with that promise.

How many times have you seen parents reward bad behavior? And then they wonder why little Suzie/Johnny is such a holy terror.

Yep, this post touched a nerve.

Sadly the products of the liberal indoctrination centers (public schools) have come to fruition. Parents have allowed teachers to raise their children and instill their beliefs in them to the extent that parents can't be parents. There is nothing wrong with a good spanking to instill a sense of right and wrong behaviour and the consequences of that behaviour. Yes, what is going on in England is happening here, thanks to our welfare system, a system that punishes parents for attempting to discipline children, by alleging child abuse. The real problem , besides liberals is lawyers.

What's really funny about this is that when I was taking some courses to try and get my teaching certificate (don't worry, I got better), the ed psych course specifically told us that until the age or 8 or 10 most children can't reason like adults, and trying to "reason with them" is pointless. You do want to explain it to them, because eventually they will be able to reason and it will sink in, but that can't be your main method of discipline.

Which makes you wonder what child psych courses the "discipline experts" are taking.

Of course those of us who are still willing to spank a disobedient child are suitably scared of what Emperor Misha calls the Child Abductive Services (whose motto is "Guilty no matter what the evidence") and therefore are rather leary of applying said discipline in public.

Jack
I have to disagree with you your observation. Teachers don't want to teach disipline in the schools, that is not their job. The majority of the people of this country are too lazy or stupid to actually raise children. Schools are used as baby sitting replacments, people willing turn over raising their children to the state. I know there are exceptions, but for the most part we are a country of the stupid and we are getting dumber. Don't believe me, look around, not many intelligent people raise large families anymore, their are a few exceptions, but for the most part, the dumber the parents the larger the family. I wil agree with you on the part about lawyers, the only good lawyer is a dead one. But hey , we let this country get this way, we gave it away with a damn smile on our face. The United States, like the Roman Empire has started to decline, because we turned soft.

The real sad point is that the schools start telling these children to call child protective services if they feel they are being abused. Here is the kicker they start this in kindergarten and show them how to use the phone to dial 1-800 number. When my son was little he threatened to call them when I punished him for calling me a bitch. It is a crying shame that this has happened, but England is a little slow. This has been happening here in the US for quite some time.

My kids are 13 and 10. I have never been a consistent spanker but it has been because I didn't need to be. When spanking is used correctly, you rarely have to do it. At least that is how it has worked at my house. The one thing I did tell them early one was, if they ever called CPS, they could rest assured that by the time they arrived there would be a reason for them to be there.

In 13 years they have never threatened that.

My ~21~ yr old has told me more then once that he is glad I *whipped* him. I don't *like the idea of it, but in a measured response to something, it works. You can't beat them for EVERYTHING, and also I think by a certain age beating becomes a demeaning factor...
I once literally *fought* my then ~17~ yr old daughter when I found out she was hanging with druggies, I threatened violence to ANYONE who dared to bring them *near her*...I felt a rightous indignation. Today I regret my actions towards her. She worked thru that *teenage* stuff and my *threats *DID NOT affect the change.
Sorry for going on here, you didn't ask for my life story...can I please interject one more opinon though? Goverments role is to defend our Borders and interests. Nothing more. Let society deem what is decent. Let us go back to public shaming of individuals who don't meet our standards. IT was cruel but a much better way then having a government *herd* us around like cattle. (Thanks, I feel better) :)
Trease

This topic always effects people differently, and gets them talking. Each person's opinion on whether it's right/wrong to spank stems from a unique personal experience. In my case, I was not only whipped, but I, along with my six siblings were terrorized, shamed, and abused on a daily basis. Today, all seven of us are on anti-depressants and trying to do better than what was done to us.

Some of us have chosen to continue the cycle, and a few of us have chosen to inflict no form of physical punishment whatsoever. I belong to the last group. It takes LOTS of time and patience to be a good parent. I'm not, however, a babbling idiot trying to placate an unruly child in a public place. But I do spend lots of time explaining things, life, and how to treat people, hopefully by good example. We have a tight, close-knit family. I have never laid a HAND on either of my children. One is now a 23 yr. old college student getting decent grades and by all accounts, is a great kid and pleasant to be around. My daughter is 11 and is likewise, a good student and an even better citizen. Neither one is perfect, mind you; but their dad and I are damn proud of them.

I hope no child ever has to suffer through what I did as a kid. Human beings deserve better. It seems like (in this forum at least) I stand alone. That's ok. I very much love my family and will trudge on the only way I know how.....not hitting, just loving.

Obviously Britain needs another Baroness Thatcher with a new "short, sharp shock".

I believe that there is a difference between a spanking and a beating. I was spanked but I was never beaten. Typically, the offending bahavior was discussed with a warning that if it continues, a spanking would follow. I recall telling my now teen daughters, "you are in control of the situation. If you don't want a spanking, don't do it again. If you do it again, I have every reason to believe that you're testing the boundries to see if they are still there."

They were.

That Victoria climbie case has been seriously misquoted.

Victoria Climbies death was entirely the fault of the social services pussyfooting around about interfering with an ethnic minorities family and the fact that the person from social services who was supposed to be looking after victoria's case had gotten her job by means of positive discrimination.

She had had virtually no training but got the job anyway because the department was under represented in that area of skintone, creed or whatever.

She was hardly ever there, or when she was, she was attending training sessions in cultural divesity awareness or something. Me you and everyone else would call it african drumming and things though. This is true, she was actually learning about african drumming and things when she should have been working and when this case was ongoing.

I mean WTF !!! "you are a SOCIAL WORKER" you dont NEED to know about african drumming. Not when your being paid by me anyway.

The whole thing was just a total mess and they just let it happen with full knowledge of the circumstances this little girl was in.

It is a well documented and discussed case. They were undeniably useless.

Her immediate boss has stated publicly that he couldnt stop this. He hated the situation and had made various authories aware of it but because of the anti racist culture of the social services he was not listened to and positively villified for doing so. Therefore he shut up.

When all this happened he resigned in disgust and told the whole diabolical tale to the express I think it was.

This poor little girl died horribly as a direct result of the social services being unwilling to either interfere with her family or to interfere with the operations of one of thier own officers because they were scared of being called racist. Simple as.

Makes me goddamned ashamed.

Bastards ...

Coley

I had my mother hand the Tiger Tooth Belt to my father on occasion, for a back to back two-fer, and I turned out fine. Well, other than posting pictures of bullwhips on my site.

There was a woman on the news a few years ago. Her son (13) knew the drill on curfew. Be in on time or you'll get a spanking. Son stayed out till Midnight and guess what happened when he got home. A spanking. Son calls cops cause he's mad. Cops arrest mother. Child services take son much to his surprise. Mom gets bailed out. Son still in group home getting his butt kicked three times a day. Child services clears mom of abuse charge. Court date comes up for the return of son. Judge says do you regret your actions? Mom says No, sir. He knew the rules and the actions I would take when he broke them. If he comes home and breaks them again the same thing will happen. If he doesn't like this then he is welcome to stay in the bed he has made for himself. Son is weeping that he's sorry and wants to come home.

When I was small I knew the rules. Was it worth it tobreak them knowing I was going to get a spanking? Usually, no. My parents NEVER beat me NOR was I abused in any way. Those spanings did get my attention when nothing else would though. ; )

The comments before this one all hit on the key points, but didn't put it together quite the way I understand them, so this comment may seem a bit redundant.

Humans have a deep, unquenchable thirst for communication. It starts at birth, when no human is quite capable of communicating effectively. As babies grow into children, they go from crying, to babbling, to talking, to screaming (if allowed to). Parents have to encourage children to get to, and stop at, talking, when there is something they want to communicate. Before a child can talk, spanking is counter-productive (and abusive). Spanking is best applied only when a child fails to communicate properly to the point on inappropriateness (lying or screaming are two examples) or when they do not accept communication properly to the point of inappropriateness (disobedience, disrespect, etc.). First you repeat the communication, then you tell the child to acknowledge you by having them repeat what you said, and if communication breaks down inappropriately, you spank the child to get their attention, and try repeating yourself again. The entire point is to get the child to behave by communicating properly and obeying. If the communication error is manifest by a child breaking a well-defined rule that the child had previously acknowledged, if the child is forthright in correcting themselves and reporting their error to the parents (which should be well-defined rules) then spanking is inappropriate. If the child "gets caught" and lies perhaps, then the child should be well steeped in the art of switch-picking.

It's all about communication, and until kids are well-adjusted, sometimes spanking is all they really understand.

KoalaBear
Quit crying or I'll give you something to cry about!

My mother always said "when all else fails use brute force" and she did and it worked.

Ah, a clue as to why I'm so effed up; I was always able to talk my Dad out of spanking me. Seriously, though, has anyone here read "Starship Troopers?" The teacher of History and Moral Philosophy talks of IMMEDIATE punishment having a greater effect on children than "Wait'll yer Dad gets home!" Like a Momma cat (sorry, Rob) popping her kitten a good one upside the nose, immediately, before the kitten forgets what he's being punished for.

You can't reason with a child. That's why violence (sorry! loving chastisement) is essential. But let's not stop at children. Mental defectives, drunks, senile old gits are all
impossible to reason with . Beat the shit out of them I say.
After all, it didn't do Acidman any harm, did it?????????

TREASE - I have thought for a long time that public flogging and/or stocks would be a good damn way to stop a bunch of miscreant behavior in adult society. I have no idea when such punishment became passe, but I would not call it unconstitutional per se. Obviously you couldn't let people freeze to death or get pneumonia (or hyperthermia and dehydration) but the concept seems to be a good way of dealing with habitual public drunks, drug dealers, and the like. I guess that public humiliation, short and sweet though it might be, just wouldn't generate the fines and court costs that most municipalities thrive on.